Monday, April 04, 2011

The Bike Incident

Now where on earth do I begin ? Do I even begin ?

Firstly, my intuition tells me that defending myself is not the best idea for reasons obvious to some.

This short film has obviously stirred up a hornets nest and there are so many angles from which to look. There's the psychological angle - mine,the PCs and the commentators, the legal angle, spiritual angle (related to 'freedom') and philosophical angle and probably many others

Before I begin, I actually want to apologise to PC Stout. At first, I gave the film to a film editor I know to blank out his face and number but I then allowed myself to be persuaded to put it up with him on it. I do regret that now. Although in a way, I think I embarrass myself as much as he embarrasses himself.

The psychological

I had a great co-counselling session with a friend on Friday and his observation was along the transactional analysis model. He said it was a classic case of PC Stout being the critical parent and myself the rebellious child. This mean that neither of us were free but stuck in our roles. I apologise therefore for being difficult. I dont apologise for answering questions, even difficult ones, but my tone was not loving and compassionate and for that I apologise. I do agree with the comments who say he was just doing his job. The problem is, what exactly is his job and how has he been trained to do it ?

The Law

One of the primary motives for putting up the film was to help us all question our understanding of the law, what it is, how it operates and how it is being 'policed' This is how one commentator put it...

The police and their civillian colleagues believe in a primary school style law.

They are the teachers and you are the pupil.

But once you are a big boy, with your big boy pants on, you're an adult.

Teachers can't tell adults what to do, only ask.

This school style law is optional, but works well on the consenting.

This world is full of every type, some love to be dominated and punished.

They have every right to love it and every right to defend it.

Dan has his big boy pants on, thats all.

The opening gambit of PC Stout which is of course common, was 'Do you know why I have stopped you ?' For me, the problem with that question is that (a) it is designed to trap me into self incrimination. It is also very condescending - surely one would never speak like that to a friend or an equal. It sets up this conversation whereby I am the naughty boy and he is the grown up telling me off.

I then tell him my lawyer advises me to be silent. If I were more skilled, I could have simply shut up at that point. I think that would have been powerful.

He then keeps on asking self incriminating questions like 'Why shouldn't I give you a ticket ?' etc

I ask if I am obliged to answer that. I then make a crucial point which I only learned very recently. I do not have to take the paperwork. I never have to accept anything from them. He doesn't know this which is why he answers 'of course you do' to my question.

I then quiz him about getting my details. He doesn't seem to really know the law about this and I quiz him more. I did not decline to give my details. i just kept on asking questions. Remember , the whole clip is only 4.5 mins long !! He often avoids answering my questions and again quite typically keeps on repeating his. He then changes the whole thing to a 'request' which is quite clever because anyone can request anything they like from anyone else. I could have requested he takes his clothes off if I wanted to ! I am aware of that trick so I ask if its a request or an order.

Eventually he gets so angry he lunges for the camera and I intuitively leave the scene in fear of my cameras health and my own. Had he not done that, I would have supplied my details and left him to put this through the system. To the best of my knowledge, he would have found it hard to nail me because it was his word against mine which is not enough to prove anything. Or maybe he would have and I would have had to pay a fine.

This leads me to the precautionary principle. And to the psychology of some of the vicious comments.

Firstly, here is a comment from someone...

The PP (which fits into the Hegelian Dialectic) has been so drummed into everyone's brains we don't even notice.

watch?v=ZnjACrJmMeA

The PP says that Danny should be locked up anyway for *nearly* causing mass murder with his cycling terror and subsequent OJ style evasion of justice. Yet no mention of the ACTUAL mass murder and justice evasion happening right now all over the real world!!

Real atrocities are downplayed while threats of terror are overblown.

I would like to ask any of the commentators who said things like 'I hope he gets killed on the road !' or other crazy and nasty things....

have you ever....

(a) driven whilst on a mobile ?
(b) TEXTED whilst driving ?
(c) been through a red light driving ON PURPOSE

Surely, these things are far more dangerous than going through a red light on a bike (in my case allegedly) - I wonder why you are so angry ? could it be projected anger when you know yhou do things far worse ?

And do any of you eat meat ? If so, i could argue that you are party to the killing of billions of animals, often living in terrible conditions and you the audacity to judge me for going ALLEGEDLY running a red light when nobody is claiming I have harmed a living soul ?

And if you people out there are such fans of the law and its being upheld, how about this (this applies especially to police officers)

take a look at this government webpage

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1

Print it out and read it on the toilet (then wipe your backside with it) but before you do, read it carefully especially the definition of terrorism. You will see that the British army's actions in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya seem clearly to fall under the Uk Governments own definition of terrorism. In this case, if any of you pay tax or know anybody else who does, and you havent reported them to the police, you are committing an offense (see part III terrorism propert - duty of disclosure)
Now compare the actual killing and maiming of thousands perhaps millions of people with the POTENTIAL hurting of another with a bike running a red light ! See what you are missing folks ! Its all so very clever.

The Spiritual

This to me is a big one - all words are just pointers. To me this points to many things and nothing including freedom. We seem to be losing our freedoms and being set upon by a police FORCE. Why is it called a force ? As I begun to rock the boat a bit, I noticed that many police officers were no longer acting as peace officers but instead seemed to be acting against me. As mentioned bove, it is very common for Police officers to talk down to us like naughty school children. This is part of a whole culture of bullying. (see http://www.youtube.com/user/stefbot#p/search/4/_KxUkRdjD3k)

TBC...

150 comments:

Anonymous said...

Danny - it seems to me that, while you raise some interesting points, you are full of unconscious anger. You go into situations talking about peace, but that is not the vibe you give off. I would guess that part of the reason authority figures get so angry around you is what psychologists call projective identification - like a baby evacuates feelings they can't tolerate onto the caregiver, you are transfering feelings onto these policemen.

danny shine said...

I would agree with you that there is a great deal of unconscious anger. I am doing my best to deal with it in therapy. For me it is a long process and I do my best at leaving it out of the equation as much as possible but it proves very difficult. My suspicion is that the overwhelming majority of us have this anger inside. I see it in my family a lot. People who project this lovely peaceful veneer to the world, when you spend time with them in a stressful family situation that anger appears.

I particularly find it tough when police officers interact with me although its getting a whole lot better. I have had some great interactions with the police many of which I havent recorded which is a shame. The reason I find it tough with the police - and the bike incident is a classic, is because they so often are 'bad' authority figures, reminding me of my father and other unskillful authority figures in my early life, triggering the rebellious child in me

nationinformation said...

Danny,
I have been watching this debate with much interest and would like to add my comments.
As I'm sure you will agree this has ballooned beyond the initial incident and turned into a massive debate. My personal take on this is this, you allegedly made a mistake the police interaction with you was not as it should have been. Your reaction was not as calm as it could have been. Both parties made mistakes, case closed. I don't feel the need to did deep into the emotional and psychological issues with this encounter other than to say we are all human and we are all falible some times. Don't let it get you down I love your work and it has proved a great inspiration to a lot of people.

Much love

danny shine said...

thanks. i agree with you and yet i do look at things from a psychological point of view. cant help it !

danny shine said...

whats interesting about what you say is that basically you are talking about forgiveness. yet so many people are so unforgiving of both myself and the PC. We're trained to do that by the media scholol etc.

optoutbutton said...

we can all try to remember to wear our big boy/girl pants under our clothes not on top, but you're still an inspiration x

Anonymous said...

Wobbly voices are a sure sign of fear.. This is usual for anyone who is met with a pointing finger.

The pointer has got a "feeling" in his solar-plexus of domination, the pointed feels this force and retracts to the "fear-plexus"..

TV (and school) has taught me (and my solar plexus) well, with it's manipulated and manufactured reaction feelings.

Barking up the wrong tree? I sure picked up on a few things before the video went awol.

BTW
I questioned a few Traffic Wardens today, they were employed by a contractor who is taken on by the local council here in LANCS, any "profits" are given to the council apparently, they had not had a pay rise in 3 years, and... they said that they DO have DISCRESSION.. Also, if the "notice" in the carpark is removed they are stuffed.. as its the "NOTICE" to the "DRIVERS" (above the pay points).. No notice, no fines!

Though I would just add that for the yin and yan effect.
DYT

Anonymous said...

Dear Danny,
I really love watching your videos and find them to be very inspirational. So firstly, thank you so much for sharing them.

The interaction of highly charged emotional viewer's responses, for some reason, remind me of a form of psychic attack. (Usually sent unintentionally)

Hope you are getting sufficient rest and are sleeping well.

Thanks for all that you do, it is appreciated

londoncentre said...

Hi Danny,

I want to write a really support message to you as i can see people are reacting in a funny way after this bike incident. Well you have done something illegal and ask who is not doing any illegal in their life. People are angry because they are so coward. I bet they are dreaming of to be someone like you. I really support your acts it makes me and other people to think. Great courage and very good work. Let it go this incident and move on look at the good weather and carry on.

Anonymous said...

Danny, please take up Ian Tomlinson's cause, it is an extreme example of everything you talk about and might (heaven forbid) give you some much needed political weight and dare I say profile in your quest for freedom.

Out of nothing but love for you and your family, I feel compelled to warn you that your current path leads you to greater aggravation from the authorities - they don't play fair and will end up using covert methods as would any corrupt individual with resources at their disposal. (I unfortunately have trouble not being such an individual)

Taking up this cause would fit perfectly into your outlook and you would automatically have millions on your side. The police would have a much harder time messing with you because they will now have an alternative motive that you could always use in court against them.

Think about it

Your friend and secret follower,

"don't get me wrong my mum makes an excellent curry, I just can't be bothered to go to the fridge to heat it up", overeaters anonymous 2006

Anonymous said...

Hi Danny,
None of us are perfect and we all can let off once in a while.No one is immune to tis and we all have our triggers and flashpoints.I think it is very refreshing to see someone who I find very interesting to listen to and learn from is neither more nor less perfect than I am.There will always be people who criticise or vent their anger.Take it on the chin dude.What dosen't kill you makes you stronger.Everything is O.K. Peace.

hippyheaven1 said...

Danny. I have to say, I think you are being overly harsh on yourself about this. The way I see it, you were looking out for yourself in a world where police officers do not always have the publics interests at heart.

Whether you went through a red light or not is immaterial. Yes it would have been wrong to do so, but worse things happen in this world and to give the matter more thought than is necessary is labouring the point (imo) and only serving to make you feel bad about a situation in which no harm was done and nobody got hurt.

BTW I love what you do - keep it up :-)

Graham

smithsfan said...

Hi Danny,

I have followed your videos for some time now and have really enjoyed them. I first saw you in Southam (I think - might have been Liverpool) where your message of "Everything is OK" resonated with me.

I noticed in the bike video that you acted in the same way as every other red blooded human being; the fight or flight response is well documented. Life is simply a constant struggle against our basic, human instincts. So do not denounce what would have protected you in the past, governments have found ways to suppress human dissonance by utilising methods of coercion which tap into these basic instincts and exploit them.

You can learn from this and will be stronger next time.

VJ

Anonymous said...

Danny,

I want to thank you for having the courage to step up and ask difficult questions of authority and of the system; to assert your rights and to test the boundary cases of police procedures. The responses you've received from commentators has demonstrated that your role in this situation is not socially clearcut and rightness is not well defined. Nevertheless, I am convinced you are coming from a good place, mean no ill and that everything will be ok.

fuzzy said...

Hi Danny,

about giving details, here in Italy is different: the law force you to give your details (not documents!). If you don't give them you can get punished. If you don't give your document, you can be brought to police station for identification. That means that in practice it is convenient to give documents.

Valerio Guagnelli Scanzani

Anonymous said...

hallo danny

Zydeco-Bill said...

Thank you Danny. I have only caught your Videos in recent times. They mean a lot to me. Yes there is anger there and great resistance to the mindless control of others. What is so wrong in that. We are socialised into conformity and consumerism to the benefit of the few.It is indeed hard to raise our voice in protest when we have attained some measure of respectability within society: in many ways we represent a much greater threat because we have the language to contradict and a position within society from which to defend ourselves.

Much love and hugs from an one who struggles to put such thoughts to work on a daily basis while maintaining the respect of those who do not necessarily agreeing with me.

La conciencia del catador said...

The Love Police is a inspiration for us. Please, suport #spanishrevolution, #yeswecamp, #woldrevolution. The time is now!

La conciencia del catador said...

La Policía del Amor es una inspiración para nosotros. Por favor, apoye usted #spanishrevolution, #yeswecamp, #worldrevolution. ¡Ahora es el momento!

¡Danny, eres muy grande!

Anonymous said...

Danny, quite frankly your police-bike video is ridiculous. Why can't you just pay the bloody fine like anyone else and get on with your life? Why act like such a child? What makes you so special that you are above the law and can do as you please?, everybody else has to abide by it, even if it means facing penalties. That policeman was only doing his job, so why make his job so difficult?

Anonymous said...

you are jeallousing anonymous above

Anonymous said...

What? Jealous that I don't have the mental age of a four year old? O.K whatever you say...
Still waiting for your response Danny?

al said...

Danny. You seem to want to live in a world where every human is able to live by their own rule. How do you propose order in such a case?

You know, there is one country where the police uniform does not grow the ego of the person inside. Yes you guessed it - its Israel. In Israel - you can argue with a police officer without fear of arrest - you can even shout. In Israel the police do not push people about just for the sake of being mean or for fun.

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Anonymous said...

Danny your being to harsh on yourself. The trouble with the police farce these days is that the job changes them/people. Its not all their fault. Its the nature of the job. They are a necessary evil. Maybe once they are not needed we can all get back to loving and caring and move forward as a peaceful race. sleep well , you make the world a better place :)

TheWarlessWarrior said...

I couldn't agree with your views more danny. Lots of peace and love to you.
I'd like to share with you a message I sent to charlie following the derision and abuse.

"Dear Mr Veitch,

You may have seen my comments on your latest video. I would like to address my humble thoughts and observations to you personally as I feel them important enough to warrant your attention.
I do not share the opinions voiced by the majority. I therefore can be viewed as the minority that Henry David Thoreau viewed as most valuable.
It is my belief that the following is accurate.
You are currently the butt of the very people whose following appears to have brought about your recent opportunity to go to america and encounter other human beings. For this I would be thankful. The fame bestowed upon you by these people appears to being growing further. I do not envy you this.
You may now have the opportunity to be released from the expectations and the burden your status once exerted.
You are loved Mr Veitch. You are loved with the same force that you tried so hard to demonstrate in your videos.
I would advise you pay no heed to the cattle who are mooing. Instead I would concentrate on being. Are you where you want to be doing that which moves your spirit? I am trying to enact a change similar to you through my blog www.1nomad.blogspot.com and my book The Diary of The Warless Warrior. I can only say the path I have chosen works for me. I choose not to atagonise the bully, rather build a reality where the bully does not exist.
I hereby offer you my counsel and friendship. Whilst I would be honoured if you replied it is not a condition. Whatever you choose, I wish you all the peace and love you deserve.

All the best and namaste."

Namaste to you too Danny.

Anonymous said...

You're so special that:
1) You're so ignorant you go through red lights (presumably on a regular basis) and give cyclists a bad name.
2) When you do get caught, you don't pay the fine like everyone else does. You think you're so special you can get away with it, and make the life of the innocent man difficult while you, the guilty party, do get away with it.

A bloody disgrace - I don't think it's possible to give cyclists more of a bad name than this. A shame you didn't get arrested IMO.

Anonymous said...

Regardless of how you justify it, you broke the law! A friend of mine almost died the other day because some idiot run a red light. Bike, car, different methods, same results.

Anonymous said...

Hi,

Firstly got to say that having only read the top 10 or so comments, I found that all of them are from fans or admirers of yours and would and do struggle to see that you have done wrong and you acted like a child. Although this comment isn't just about your band of happy followers and well wishers it is mainly about your line regarding the killing of billions of animals, down playing of your actions and comparisons of yourself to grander areas of our world.

You are beyond jumped up and such an arrogant person it is unbelievable! Trying to link your small run in with the law to terrorism and the like is maybe you trying a bit too hard to make people look at the bigger picture and think 'oh he's only running a red light, he's not hurting anyone'. Well in fact the smallest of incidents can lead implications outweighing that of the initial act. Me walking into a large electronics supplier and stealing a tv wouldn't hurt them, they wouldn't notice the difference in their bottom line figure should one tv go missing. No one is being hurt, should I be punished for?? yes I should.

To finish off, you ran a red light, acted like a child, should have been or should be punished for your actions, you are not above the law and even though you make the point that people add to the slaughter of billions of animals by eating meat, why or how is that relevant? Its not.

Get over yourself.

p.s. would like to change my earlier point that most of the people leaving comments are pro revolutionist Danny standing up to the man and saying what we all want you to say, our hero, whereas in fact there are others, like me who think you are a dick and although this will be seen by you as another hate mail or another comment regarding your arrogance you are a disgrace.

Mal said...

God you are an up your own arse twat aren't you? You run a red light then when a cop approaches you perfectly reasonably you spout a load of bollocks back at him. Then you try and justify it on here with some pseudopsychological claptrap. Just count yourself lucky a) that you didn't get hit by some vehicle coming through the red light and b)I am not a copper cos I would have probably hit you.

Anonymous said...

poor video, poor blog response. you antics achieve nothing other than making youself look like a complete wanker.

Anonymous said...

So the copper didnt know the ins and outs of law. He did know you had broken the law (it does apply to cyclists as well as motorists you know)

You however acted like a comlete arsehole throughout

Not because of bad father figures in the past or any other nonsence, but because you are a wanker

Anonymous said...

It seems to me that you're just out to argue semantics in the hope that it makes you look smarter and reduces your overall perceived responsibility. Unfortunately all the argument in the world, all the philosophy and twisting and turning of points will never negate a simple and inarguable point. You ran a red light, you broke the law and you subsequently avoided the punishment that, in any other case with any other perpetrator, you would expect them to accept without argument.

What you need to do is accept that you're wrong, accept that you have 100% culpability for your mistake and stop attempting to attribute the blame to some over thought and over analysed philosophical theoretical mumbo jumbo.

Anonymous said...

Oh and by the way - you are a naughty child and that is exactly the way you needed to be addressed.

me said...

So.
You went through a red light on a bike. so what! lets face it, you do it in a car and you could kill someone fairly easy. Ruin someones life. Could be a cyclist coming through. Can you imagine the guilt of turning someone paraplegic? Would be pretty hard to live with I recon. Now imagine you're that motorist, you are law abiding, you set off in the green light. BAM! Out of nowhere that a cyclist slams into the side of your car. You've done nothing illegal, or even wrong, but that cyclist has imposed guilt on you. He's left a mark on you that will never heal. You wanted to explore the psychology of the incident? Do it properly or not at all. Dont be selfish. Dont be a tool./
have a nice day

contrararian said...

Interesting post. Just found it after seeing your video. Kudos for apologising. Amusing to see anonymous scolders railing about *your* unconscious anger.

kris said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Hey danny.

Are you aware that,today.the Jeremy Vine Show on BBC Radio 2 aired audio from your "How To Deal With The Police" youtube video and had a discussion about whether you or PC Stout were behaving correctly?

Jeremy Vine described the video as if it was recent.I notice you have taken the video down.

Did you take the video down as a result of this Radio 2 spotlight?

Anonymous said...

You were correct in what you did in response to PC Stout's questions and actions.

Many many people do not know the difference between Acts/Statutes and Common Law.Or the difference between Legal and Lawful or vice-versa.

Going through a Red Light was described on the Jeremy Vine show,by ALL guests and host,as a CRIMINAL offence! Which of course,it is NOT. You were entirely justified in questioning this man in a costume who didnt even know the laws he swears an oath to uphold, i.e Common Law.

You do not need to apologise for your actions to anyone.

I feel sorry for the brainwashed masses out there who seem to be quite happy to fall at the feet of any Police Constable wrongly believing that the Police are our masters and that we must do anything they say without question.

Good on you buddy!

Peace X

Anonymous said...

I am afraid you are no better than a significant minority of utterly selfish, stupid, pious and thoughtless cyclists. Learn the Highway Code, and stop being so arrigant. I look forward to the next time you charge through a red light at a pedestrian crossing, and making your "acquaintance". Be warned.

Anonymous said...

Hi Danny
There is nothing wrong with ignoring a red light if you can do so without causing harm to anybody. In this instance Im so glad you did - your action has done the opposite of harm to me.
Thank you, thank you and thank you again!

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